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Visual Nucleus or the Picture´s Restlessness

Christian Muhr in dialogue with Ingo Nussbaumer (March 2000)

Christian Muhr:
The title of the exhibition is "shade". It appears noteworthy to me that an exhibition which deals with painting has "shadow" in its title, especially when at first glance at the works presented shows color to be a central factor. Therefore it would be interesting to hear why the exhibition is called so?

Ingo Nussbaumer:
The expression "shade" does not only mean "shadow", but also "color nuance, hue", and it appeared to me to be the most suitable expression to use in connection with the theme of the shadow, which I have pursued for several years, since color nuance plays a very significant role in my painting, or has developed into a very significant role.

C.M.:
The title really refers to the problem of nuance and not so much to the polarization of light and shadow, of white and black?

I.N.:
Yes, the subject leads all the way to the phenomenon of the "colored shadow", a special example of nuance. One encounters this phenomenon in nature under certain lighting conditions, and it is in itself already a highly pictorial event. Shadow can suddenly take on a color. And this transformationinterests me. The reason this subject still interests me is that the art of the sixties and seventies distanced itself from the "classical" painting topics and placed "pure color" or industrial color into the foreground, and this position has had a certain relevance until today. And of course the use of the computer has created new conditions, for it allows the study of completely new color situations beforehand, which was not possible before.

C.M.:
There is a tendency in the art of this century which implies that one should either prefer to deal with color or else with phenomena such as structure, for example. The Cubists believed, for example, that they could not deal with both at the same time.

I.N.:
What you are touching on there is, fundamentally, an old problem which concerns the relationship between "disegno" and "colore", "drawing" and "color". The argument regarding the predominance goes back to the Renaissance and continues, in a continually modified form, into the 20th century, where it is reflected in the conflict between "structure" and "color". I give neither structure nor color the predominance in my own conception of painting. Structure and color have a completely equal significance. There are pictorial ideas where, at first, structure is in the foreground, and those in which color is in the foreground. It has always been my fundamental intention to, on the one hand, develop structure out of color and to harden or compress color into a structure, and on the other hand to let color emerge out of structure, or to think it. The idea of process plays a very crucial role in my work. Color nuance is of course the result of a process, because it cannot be simply set, but must be developed out of the chosen or ideally conceived main colors. My focus on color nuance appears to me to be a logical consequence both in historical and factual regard.

C.M.:
You like to speak of the character of color in this respect. Could you define this concept more precisely?

I.N.:
Every color has its own, almost unmistakable color character. This is already important in that from the beginning, the individual and not only the universal character of color is addressed. I can, of course, treat each color in the same way, I can apply each color the same way and deal with color in an entirely indifferent manner. But if I speak of the character of color, then I admit to each color having its own value, one which applies only to that color. This value becomes qualified, naturally, the moment it confronts another color. There is no absolute value, but there is a relative value which becomes generalized when one observes a color in many color situations and the value stays constant. One can consciously use this value in pictorial conception if one can work it out. For example, red and blue become differentiated from their spatial character, as from their time character. Red is a fast, frontal color, it comes forward, it has an aggressive character, while the color blue possesses a character of depth and the characteristic of continuity. There is a picture in the exhibition in which an orange color bar throws a shadow onto a turquoise/green-yellow backgroud (see Illustration) and thus creates the spatial dimension. That would be an example of how one can use the character of color in order to develop a structure.

C.M.:
Let us return to the subject of differentiation and nuance: I am interested in how this aspect finds expression in your work with the computer. The computer may work out all possible colors, but the development of the "color character" will probably happen via the art and not so much alone via algorithmic constellations?

I.N.:
First I must say that monitor color is considerably different from material color. That means that even if one studies color nuances on the computer, one cannot transfer the result one to one to the picture, since the material color possesses a whole other character. Monitor color is classified as light color, and in it are nuances which one cannot reach with material color or with pigments. And the opposite applies of course as well.

C.M.:
And for this reason the perfection of digital production is no threat to painting. There is always the old superficial conjecture that here is a medium with unlimited possibilities, while the "old" medium of painting is, so to speak, limited. That is not necessarily so, for there is simply a categorical difference.

I.N.:
There is a categorical difference, whereby the computer, for me, is an extended sketchbook. It enables one to design and study color constellations which are almost not possible by traditional means such as pencil, paper and paint. It accelerates the design process and multiplies the possible choices. And then, a sketch which I color by hand has a character different from a computer drawing. But therein lies a special tension of course. In the creation of the works it is not simply a matter of placing a layer of color - there are many layers. And basically the placement of colors in layers is a "restorative" process, for, in the course of painting, I "restore" – that is Ad Reinhardt´s expression – the color to its own and typical character, which is, of course, not present in the monitor color. There one can find at most an orientation value for the material character.

C.M.:
Could one say that you `decline´ various constellations in order to study which ones appear to promise success in view of a specification of the color character in the painting? But one cannot, following an old debate, say: earlier on, art copied nature and now it copies a "second nature" which is created through the computer.

I.N.:
No, that is not at all the case. The computer facilitates the relatively quick study of latent pictorial structures and their concretization. If one knows the difference between monitor and material color, then the process of carrying out is truly a whole other, innovative step. Perhaps I can add something in regard to structure and color: there is a very good statement by Frank Stella who said that he had learned not to draw with color, like many of his contemporaries, but to think color as color. He does not prescribe a contour for color, but lets it evolve through application by creating border areas like canals between the painted stripes. Drawing and subsequent coloring – as I also did earlier on in my designs – disappear with the computer, for I create color planes and color paths out of the pictorial idea, and color and drawing appear subtly differentiated, but as one.

C.M.:
If one considers why color tended at times to be viewed suspiciously compared with drawing, why this underprivileged state of color developed, then that must be because western culture tends to say: color is a phenomenon which appeals to sensuousness, to the senses and the senses are deceiving, they have "appetitus" and are easily seduced. Philosophy has a basic mistrust of sensory experience and of the individual in this experience – the not "universalizeable". For of course the idea which held "the nature of things" as an abstract was searched for. The question of color is accidental, casual.

I.N.:
It is true that western tradition thinks in terms of the opposites substance and accident and that color is then always accident: characteristic of the object, the substance. It appears in materiality, but plays a subordinate role – and in objective painting, color is of course on the object – abstract painting is the first actual step to break open this traditional relationship between substance and accident and to place that which was a characteristic of the object in a different light. This step continues in the 20th century and allows for the development of color in a whole other direction, one which old, traditional painting did not know. Color becomes a concern with which one now involves oneself the way one, earlier on, was involved with objects. Since then, color is thought of objectively.

C.M.:
Again and again Delacroix and Courbet are mentioned in this connection, for in the works of both painters there are zones which cannot be applied to an object, upon which color has no object as carrier. One no longer sees where the color belongs.

I.N.:
Color becomes unaccidentalized and therefore can become a primary theme. For example also in Cezanne´s case – Cezanne works completely anti-accidentally with color, where of course his method is very specific. He also has a problem of translation – there is a very good statement by Cezanne, namely that he looks into nature and then translates the impression according to the feeling, the sensation, immediately onto the canvas in almost uncontrolled rhythmic movements. Form develops out of these rhythmic movements. Color is thought of objectively and not imagine daccidentally.

C.M.:
In this context, it would be interesting to know how you get to the "pictorial ideas".

I.N.:
The pictorial ideas are actually spontaneous "pictures in the head", an immediate mental presence of pictures. Naturally it is not as if they come to be out of the blue. Rather their creation demands that I occupy myself over a longer period of time with various pictorial problems and search for a solution by again and again sketching anew, by testing configurations, by playing through variations. This process precedes the pictorial idea, but the idea itself is a spontaneous intellectual phenomenon and develops at once. It might be that a real situation is a "occasional reason" - a moment might trigger the development of a pictorial idea which then organizes itself independently. The idea is an organized structure which at once presents the picture as a whole. And then I draw this idea on the computer. I call the process that follows the test run of the pictorial idea. I begin to nuance colors, to change, to see if a heightening of this idea is possible, or if this idea declines or modifies itself into a new one, which also happens. But a very strong pictorial idea stays til the end. I have noticed this again and again.

C.M.:
Of what significance is the realization of the pictorial idea? For a conceptual artist like Lawrence Weiner the carrying out of the idea would not be an essential criterion. But in your case it is so, is it not, that the idea must be carried out?

I.N.:
Without realization of the pictorial idea, the picture is not really a picture for me. The picture is only real then, when the idea has, so to speak, been fulfilled. Basically it is of course an ancient philosophical discussion, the so-called universals problem, which has been discussed since antiquity under "Platonism", "Aristotelianism" and "Nominalism". Are the universals, or the idea, in front of the things, in the things, or after the things – that means only present in the head? As an artist, all three positions are relevant. In a certain sense the idea exists in the head before the picture is carried out, then in the design, through executing the picture in the actual work, and in the viewing of the picture. Through the execution of the work the idea become sensorily manifest. The better the execution results, the better I know the process of executing the work, the "more real" the idea can become and unfold its effect.Without being put into concrete terms, the effect of the idea upon a single person and his or her mental actions would remain limited.

C.M.:
These three positions also touch upon the relationship between color and language.

II.N.:
Language, when it becomes precise, when it becomes more conceptual, can selectively draw attention to specific phenomena and refer to connections. Language does this better than color because it stands on another level. Language is more conceptual and more abstract and also makes faster transports possible. On the other hand, structure always plays a role within a picture. A picture is a structure which one can compare with a sentence. Therefore I also use the expression "proposition" for my pictures, which means "statement. "Sentence" and "statement" must of course be differentiated. The statement is more or less the meaning of the sentence. A picture can be viewed as a structure whose single elements are autonomous – just as a word in a sentence can be something independent – but nevertheless become an independent statement through the structure. There is a comparable level of language and picture, where only the type of perception is different.

C.M.:
Typically, you have used the word "proposition" for you pictures, probably also in order to refer to the relationship between language and picture, while it is not your intention to favor one or the other, or to do without one or the other.

I.N.:
That is almost not possible. It is also interesting that through the development of the computer – yes, let us say – the arithmetical and geometrical become a unit. The pictorial and the linguistic or the symbolic grow together in the computer. Chaos research is an example of this. One has a formula which is also optically present, which, so to speak, becomes visible. And so this contrast, which earlier on was often very strongly emphasized, that one differentiated between perception or non-perception and signs – today basically no longer exists in this sense, and I believe that this contrast will continue to dissolve in the future.

C.M.:
Good that you mention the computer, for there are physicists or biochemists who have begun not to calculate formulae, but also to visualize, and who certainly orient themselves in their manipulations on aesthetic points of view.

I.N.:
There really is a parallel between art and science, because the scientist also tries out what happens when he takes away or adds things, and the computer then calculates and describes. And basically I do the same in my expanded sketchbook – what happens when I change the color nuance a bit?

C.M.:
It is interesting to imagine that behind every color you evoke and test at the computer there is a binary code - a form of language and grammar. Behind the color field presented by the interface is an unbelievably long chain of commands.

I.N.:
There are the different levels as I was saying. The chain behind it is the considerably more abstract level, which however of course enables the next level to be put in concrete terms. Without these commands, this would never happen.

C.M.:
We have briefly characterized the pictorial idea. Now the "test run". Let us talk about painting – the creation of the painting.

I.N.:
Well, after the pictorial idea has completed a test run and has modified itself and has been put into such concrete terms as to make the pictorial idea convincing enough to be put into effect, the next step is to prepare the realization. I paint on harboard-panels, which a carpenter makes into individual "pictorial bodies" according to my instructions. "Pictorial bodies" also, because the picture, for me, also possesses the character of an object, and also because it can throw its own shadow – in other words, a real shadow can be confronted with a "painted shadow" or a nuanced color bar . I then prime the surface with a very absorbant primer, which makes it possible for the color to keep a matte character even through numerous layers. Roughly eight layers of primer go onto the hardboard-panel, whereby the last primer layer is applied with a palette-knife, in order to achieve as smooth and even a surface as possible. The reason for this is that, in comparison to a canvas – a canvas has an irregular surface and scatters light – the light should not be scattered and weakened, in order for color to develop an optimal effect. I use a smooth and even surface which enables very subtle color nuances to be perceived where they would almost disappear on a canvas. If you compare the two, the differences are astonishing. The colors develop an entirely different radiance.

C.M.:
Have you, over the course of time, adapted this technique and these materials optimally for yourself?

I.N.:
Yes. And this method is important because I only move toward color in the course of the realization. It is crucial that the color continue to exist as such, and not the medium - for example, oil paints move into the foreground and then build an "artificial film" over the color. The color should remain matte in order to express its material character. And with 20 layers of color, which I occasionally have, pictures could become entirely "greasy". Therefore I have searched for ways in which the surface remains matte and the pigmentary character of the color has a more transparent effect. That is also why wood, its absorbant character with the special chalk primer, was an ideal means of getting there.

C.M.:
The pictures have a high degree of perfection, the surface structure alone. One does not even immediately see that the pictures have been painted with a brush.

I.N.:
It is important for me to paint the picture with a brush in order to give expression also to the haptic qualities of the color. This haptic quality, with in the end makes up the perceptible color object, results only then when one works with a brush, and not with an airbrush or a roller. For the viewer, however, it moves into the background, since from a certain distance from the picture – two meters suffice – the structure of the brushstrokes can barely be perceived. But there is a fine irregularity which can unfold its effect despite this apparently homogenous color surface. The color remains in certain sense restless, alive. And this restlessness and liveliness has its own appeal, which of course corresponds to the idea of color nuance. The color nuance nuances itself in itself one more time.

C.M.:
At first glance these pictures appear very ordered, like a formula. They form a "visual nucleus" and appear to formulate a type of "equation", and the orthogonal placements reinforce the impression of perfection. And yet these lines represent irregularities, while modernism tended to attempt to eliminate irregularities.

I.N.:
That is the idealism of modernism. The idealism of modernism tries to find fundamental elements, but abstracts from real circumstances. Fundamentally it is so that, in reality, everything deviates from the ideal norm. And so there is also not this one exact line. The world´s diversity lies in these deviations and makes developments possible. Were the deviations not present, there would be practically no development. And to move this development forward again and again, to find new impetus for developments, deviation is a conscious theme in my painting.

C.M.:
Here you again take an entirely different stance, for there are enough colleagues who have formulated a proposition in order to consciously mark an end point. After the motto, we have found the basic formula and thus further research is senseless. Let us stop or move on to something else.

I.N.:
And I turn it around and say: this is the starting point! The development in that direction is crucial, but in the end I do not reach the end, but the beginning. The "real" development only begins at this point. And modernism or the twentieth century is the step to concentrate, to compress these elements, and at that moment, when one has more or less arrived there, then development actually begins.

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